Bug 20406 - Remove ISBD display
Summary: Remove ISBD display
Status: In Discussion
Alias: None
Product: Koha
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Staff interface (show other bugs)
Version: master
Hardware: All All
: P5 - low enhancement (vote)
Assignee: Bugs List
QA Contact: Testopia
URL:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks: 20396
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Reported: 2018-03-14 14:08 UTC by Gaetan Boisson
Modified: 2020-04-04 22:48 UTC (History)
15 users (show)

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Change sponsored?: ---
Patch complexity: ---
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Description Gaetan Boisson 2018-03-14 14:08:52 UTC
The ISBD display is old fashioned, uses an undocumented internal syntax that isn't as flexible as we would need, has long standing problems (https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3116) and is completely superseded by xslt.

I think we could remove it entirely.
Comment 1 Tomás Cohen Arazi 2018-03-14 14:11:14 UTC
Would this include the ISBD export format? I ask because, so far, is the only way to specify custom formats for export/sending lists/carts.
Comment 2 Gaetan Boisson 2018-03-14 15:52:55 UTC
Can't we use csv export there as well?
Comment 3 Katrin Fischer 2018-03-17 09:02:56 UTC
Yes, I think we can use CSV profiles in some places.

I agree that the syntax is underdocumented, but I am not sure that some libraries aren't still wanting this.

Students might use it for creating lists of literature for their projects maybe? It's an easy to copy summary and somewhat more readable than what you could do with a CSV.
Comment 4 Fridolin Somers 2018-04-05 15:07:19 UTC
I think we should provide export with XSLT profiles in addition to CSV profiles.
Comment 5 Eugene Espinoza 2018-04-08 11:45:07 UTC
Hi Gaetan! For old-fashioned librarians still printing catalog cards, this is their way of copy-pasting what is in the ISBD display into their word document in so far as experience is concern.
Comment 6 Andreas Hedström Mace 2018-04-08 20:31:03 UTC
I agree with Gaetan that this should be removed. Keeping it (undocumented and problematic as it is) only for the sake of copy-pasting seems a waste. Better work on the export formats instead then.
Comment 7 Indranil Das Gupta 2018-04-09 10:00:21 UTC
I disagree and with good reason! yes, agreed that the way it is implemented is not in the best possible manner. 

The ISBD display support is one of the __MAJOR__ reason that has allowed the massive use of Koha across the entire Indian sub-continent. Without the ISDB display (and I do not mean the code) as an option on the OPAC and staff client, Koha will stand to lose the position of de-facto choice. many libraries here have infact use the ISBD display as the primary display.

So, yes I don't mind a code upgrade / cleanup. But that display is *needed* and needs to stay. Koha users are not all from the 1st world countries and thousands are still using AACR2 instead of RDA.
Comment 8 Nicolas Legrand 2018-04-09 11:08:16 UTC
We were just about to use it! Our cataloguing colleagues want a quick view of the data.

You have to click a lot on the MARC view to see it all.

The XSLT view is appropriate for circulation but not for what they want.
Comment 9 Gaetan Boisson 2018-04-09 13:06:32 UTC
Well, it seems a few people do rely on this display.

My understanding is that the requirement is a more simple display than the normal one, without all the links, layout, and features we have in the normal display. (Nicolas, the marc view is indeed quite horrible, somehow some librarians want it by default yes!)

I think this display would still be better achieved through xslt, which wouldn't require us to have a half-baked undocumented domain-specific templating system hanging around in Koha just for this one tab.

Maybe indeed we could make it so that several xslts could be used in the normal display, and allow the user to switch between them?

This would of course make it possible to have a simple text only ISBD-style display, but anything would be possible then.
Comment 10 sujan.lib 2018-04-09 13:39:18 UTC
(In reply to Indranil Das Gupta from comment #7)
> I disagree and with good reason! yes, agreed that the way it is implemented
> is not in the best possible manner. 
> 
> The ISBD display support is one of the __MAJOR__ reason that has allowed the
> massive use of Koha across the entire Indian sub-continent. Without the ISDB
> display (and I do not mean the code) as an option on the OPAC and staff
> client, Koha will stand to lose the position of de-facto choice. many
> libraries here have infact use the ISBD display as the primary display.
> 
> So, yes I don't mind a code upgrade / cleanup. But that display is *needed*
> and needs to stay. Koha users are not all from the 1st world countries and
> thousands are still using AACR2 instead of RDA.

I agreed with you Mr. Das Gupta.. .
Comment 11 Jasimudeen 2018-04-09 18:22:57 UTC
Old is gold ! :)

Its better not to remove ISBD display.its a feature which makes Koha more welcoming to Indian users.Forget the undocumented internal syntax for a while.
Comment 12 Bengal Library Association 2018-04-10 06:57:38 UTC
Strongly disagree with the initiative of removing ISBD display. This may be because of the fact that Librarians are not so much involved in Koha development team. The popularity of Koha in Indian Subcontinent is mostly based on the ISBD view of entered database. Till now there are a lot of users in this Subcontinent those want to view the catalogue not in mnemonic format but in ISBD format. As MARC framework is totally based on AACR2, so removing ISBD display should be unethical, as I think. Correlating MARC with AACR2 properly is the only way of integrating the sense of librarianship with the technological aspects of a library management software, is my opinion. Again as there are many items described in AACR2 Part 1 and there is only one place of writing syntax in ISBD template in Koha, at the time of releasing new version of Koha we are waiting for some easier way of incorporating syntax of each and every items. Hope effort should be made regarding this not removing the existing ISBD display. Regards...
Comment 13 Chris Cormack 2018-04-13 08:35:30 UTC
While I agree w(In reply to Bengal Library Association from comment #12)
> Strongly disagree with the initiative of removing ISBD display. This may be
> because of the fact that Librarians are not so much involved in Koha
> development team. The popularity of Koha in Indian Subcontinent is mostly
> based on the ISBD view of entered database. Till now there are a lot of
> users in this Subcontinent those want to view the catalogue not in mnemonic
> format but in ISBD format. As MARC framework is totally based on AACR2, so
> removing ISBD display should be unethical, as I think. Correlating MARC with
> AACR2 properly is the only way of integrating the sense of librarianship
> with the technological aspects of a library management software, is my
> opinion. Again as there are many items described in AACR2 Part 1 and there
> is only one place of writing syntax in ISBD template in Koha, at the time of
> releasing new version of Koha we are waiting for some easier way of
> incorporating syntax of each and every items. Hope effort should be made
> regarding this not removing the existing ISBD display. Regards...

I agree with most of this comment, and agree that ISBD should not be removed. But it is wrong to say Librarians are not involved with Koha, every single feature in Koha has come as a request from Librarians. The QA Manager is a librarian, plenty of others are involved.

It is true that there are not many Indian Librarians involved, and that this should change. Commenting on bugs is a good start, paying developers to add features such as an easier way to edit ISBD is a good second step.
Comment 14 Elaine Bradtke 2018-04-23 18:17:39 UTC
I think the ISBD has its uses, brevity and clarity for one. It seems to make sense to change how the view is generated to a more widely recognized standard.  However, we've customized ours to display some of the less common fields we use, and if you change how it's coded, I expect that will have to be redone.  I imagine other libraries who use it have also customized theirs?
Comment 15 Tomás Cohen Arazi 2018-04-23 18:58:07 UTC
It seems to me that this bug highlights how complicated(In reply to Elaine Bradtke from comment #14)
> I think the ISBD has its uses, brevity and clarity for one. It seems to make
> sense to change how the view is generated to a more widely recognized
> standard.  However, we've customized ours to display some of the less common
> fields we use, and if you change how it's coded, I expect that will have to
> be redone.  I imagine other libraries who use it have also customized theirs?

I think this comment highlights one of the problems with the current XSLT-driven visualization: it is too difficult to do and maintain for most institutions.
Comment 16 BestBookBuddies 2018-04-24 06:57:27 UTC
We also disagree with this suggestion of removing "ISBD View", as many Indian Subcontinent libraries are still based on AACR-2 and they are using this feature in their libraries for the end user's convenience. Even many times libraries use this ISBD view as default display view. Also, adding more information in ISBD view is easy for librarians by using Koha Global system preferences. It just need some more documentation to explore more. And in case, the community wishes to add additional feature like export cart in "CSV format", it is good and it can be done while the ISBD should remain in existence.
Comment 17 Vitor Fernandes 2019-05-31 11:21:09 UTC
I think the ISBD preview should not be removed. 
However it should work equal to the normal view, ie use XSLT.
It allows more flexibility (repeatable fields, maintain fields ordering, etc.) to configure the view than the system preferences.