Bug 8366 - Meaning of "All" in issuing rules
Summary: Meaning of "All" in issuing rules
Status: NEW
Alias: None
Product: Koha
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Circulation (show other bugs)
Version: master
Hardware: All All
: P5 - low normal (vote)
Assignee: Bugs List
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Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks: 8362
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Reported: 2012-07-05 13:31 UTC by Paul Poulain
Modified: 2019-12-11 12:11 UTC (History)
8 users (show)

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Description Paul Poulain 2012-07-05 13:31:01 UTC
In issuingrules, the library / patron category / item type all have a "all" option. The meaning of this "all" differ :

* for library and patron category, what is entered here is used if no other rule is defined.
* for item types, what is entered here is used for all check-out for itemtypes that don't have a specific rule.

Let's suppose we have 4 itemtypes : book, comics, dvd, CD
Rules are :
BOOKS 2
COMICS 3
"All" 4
If you check out a DVD, Koha will check if the total number of NOT IN('BOOKS','COMICS') is less than 4

so the "All" is more an "otherwise" than a default value.
Comment 1 Nicole C. Engard 2012-07-05 14:18:03 UTC
Paul,

Sounds to me like they are saying the same thing: "All, unless another rule exists that can apply here."

Is that not the case?

Nicole
Comment 2 Paul Poulain 2012-07-05 14:50:34 UTC
(In reply to comment #1)
> Sounds to me like they are saying the same thing: "All, unless another rule
> exists that can apply here."
> 
> Is that not the case?


Hi Nicole,
That's just a term that can be confusing. For branches & patron category, it means "rule to apply if no other rule exists". In my example, if you have a "all" rule of 4 books, you can issue 4 books from library A AND 4 books from library B.

For itemtype, it's a little bit different: one could think he can issue 4 DVD AND 4 CDs, but in fact he can just check-ou 4 "not (BOOKS or Comics)". So 3 DVD and 1 CD, or 2 and 2 or 4 and 0 (a *total* of 4, not 4 on each itemtype not defined)

Do you see the difference ? I think it's worth a different term.

Other option = if you consider it should be 4 DVDs and 4CD, it means it's a bug, because it's not the current behaviour and it must be fixed !
Comment 3 Albert Oller 2012-07-05 18:25:52 UTC
Hi Paul,

I wasn't confused by this term, and I haven't come across any Koha partners who were confused.  I can't think of a better term to use that would fit on a tab.  Do you have any suggestions for a better term to use?

Maybe we can just be more explicit in the manual about what is being done in each case, rather than creating a new term?

Best regards,
Albert
Comment 4 Paul Poulain 2012-07-06 07:28:37 UTC
(In reply to comment #3)
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I wasn't confused by this term, and I haven't come across any Koha partners
> who were confused.
The french version is quite confusing, none or BibLibre librarian project managers (4) had understood it works that way.

> I can't think of a better term to use that would fit on
> a tab.  Do you have any suggestions for a better term to use?
I propose:
 * Default => for branches and categorycode
 * Otherwise => for itemtype

> Maybe we can just be more explicit in the manual about what is being done in
> each case, rather than creating a new term?
That's also needed, but differenciating the terms is also.
Comment 5 Nicole C. Engard 2012-07-06 11:24:54 UTC
The problem here in the US is that it used to say Default and confused the librarians here so that's why it was changed to 'All' - so now we're looking for another word that will make sense to everyone.

Maybe it needs to be a phrase instead if it's a translation issue.
Comment 6 Paul Poulain 2012-07-12 14:05:12 UTC
(In reply to comment #5)
> Maybe it needs to be a phrase instead if it's a translation issue.

I would be pleased by a phrase instead of a word as common as "all". Could you suggest something (and/or submit a patch I would be happy to signoff & push)
Comment 7 Paul Poulain 2012-09-06 12:40:52 UTC
(In reply to comment #5)
> The problem here in the US is that it used to say Default and confused the
> librarians here so that's why it was changed to 'All' - so now we're looking
> for another word that will make sense to everyone.
> 
> Maybe it needs to be a phrase instead if it's a translation issue.

I repeat what I wrote in comment 7: could we replace 'All' by something else?
I propose : 'No specific itemtype rule'; 'other itemtype', 'any', 'otherwise', 'any other itemtype'

Nicole, any other suggestion ? one of mine sounds good ?
Comment 8 Nicole C. Engard 2012-09-13 11:53:11 UTC
Sorry for the delay, I was doing some research.  Librarians seem to like the idea of going back to 'Default' instead of 'All'.  But we might want to ask why it was changed to all originally - who was confused by 'All'?

Nicole
Comment 9 Paul Poulain 2012-09-17 09:17:54 UTC
(In reply to comment #8)
> Sorry for the delay, I was doing some research.  Librarians seem to like the
> idea of going back to 'Default' instead of 'All'.  But we might want to ask
> why it was changed to all originally - who was confused by 'All'?
> 
> Nicole

The main issue here is that the "all" (same word) has different meanings. See the initial description of this bug:
* for libraries and patrons, it means "value to use if there is no rule for this library/patron"
* for itemtypes it means "otherwise", it's not exactly the same "default"

Let me take another example:
3 libraries LA, LB, LC
3 patron categories PA, PB, PC
3 itemtypes IA, IB, IC

If you define
LA, PA, IA = 5 items
LA, PA, IB = 5 items
LA, PA, IC = 5 items
*, *, * = 10 items
it will mean one can issue 10 items from LB *and* 10 items from LC

That's not the same behaviour as for itemtypes, where
LA, PA, IA = 5
LA, PA, * = 10
means 10 IB *or* IC (= 10 IB, 9 IB+1IC, 8+2, 7+3,...)

Different behaviour = different terms should be used !
Comment 10 Koha Team University Lyon 3 2012-09-25 13:59:56 UTC
I'm not sure of the rule for itemtypes :
I test in issuingrules :
categorycode	itemtype	maxissueqty
ETUL3	*	10
ETUL3	DVD	2
ETUL3	EXC	0
ETUL3	PRET	10
ETUL3	PRET3J	2

with this parameters, an ETUL3 Patron can check out 10 PRET + 2 DVD + 2 PRET3J : a total of 14 items.
The line ETUL3	*	10 doesn't match.
Comment 11 Marc Véron 2016-03-29 13:27:25 UTC
Still valid?
Comment 12 Paul Poulain 2016-03-29 13:36:35 UTC
yes it is. And what is "funny" is that we have a customer asking about that last friday !!! (he was confused by the terms & thought there was a bug, counting "all" as "global total" instead of "otherwise"
Comment 13 Katrin Fischer 2019-01-14 22:12:11 UTC
I am sorry, but I don't understand the difference for itemtypes.
We've had no issues with the terms here so far. Currently Koha uses "All".
Comment 14 Jonathan Druart 2019-12-11 12:11:01 UTC
Lowering severity.